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Toot or Boot

Toot or Boot

By: WRKdefined Podcast Network
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Toot or Boot brings you unfiltered conversations about work — straight from HR insiders who aren’t afraid to tell the truth. With a rotating crew of progressive HR leaders, we break down the latest news and trends to show what’s really happening and why it matters for your job. Whether you’re in HR or just trying to survive your 9-to-5, expect real talk, practical advice, and the occasional laugh to get you through the chaos of modern work. To find out more, check out tootorboot.comAll rights reserved by WRKdefined Economics Management Management & Leadership Politics & Government
Episodes
  • When Disengagement Is Really Self-Protection

    When Disengagement Is Really Self-Protection
    Mar 10 2026
    Disengagement at work is often framed as an attitude problem. But what if it’s actually a nervous system response? In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall sits down with HR leader and psychology-trained strategist Erica Spitale to unpack the deeper forces behind workplace disengagement, trust, and emotional safety. Together they explore why employees withdraw when environments feel unsafe, how organizations misunderstand emotions at work, and why productivity without humanity simply doesn’t last. The conversation digs into the complex reality of modern work: employees bringing global crises, economic stress, and personal uncertainty into the workplace while organizations attempt to maintain focus and output. Erica offers a powerful reframing — emotions are not distractions; they are data. Stacey and Erica also examine the fragile nature of trust at work, how it forms (and collapses), and why trust is less about individuals and more about the conditions organizations create. Along the way they tackle the tension between emotional expression and professional boundaries, the myth of “political neutrality” at work, and the structural forces behind disengagement. If you’ve ever wondered why employees seem checked out, why trust at work feels fragile, or how leaders can build healthier workplaces without sacrificing accountability, this conversation offers a more human framework for understanding what’s really happening. Key Takeaways Workplace disengagement is often a nervous system response to perceived threat, not laziness or apathy. Employees disengage when they lack psychological safety, belonging, or trust in their environment. Emotions at work are data points, revealing what matters and where friction exists. Organizations frequently mislabel disengagement as an individual attitude problem instead of a systemic issue. Productivity without acknowledging human needs cannot be sustained long-term. Trust in the workplace is not an individual trait — it is an environmental outcome created by conditions. Employees maintain multiple relationships at work: with their job, their team, and the organization. Leaders must balance clear expectations with humane assumptions. Emotional expression and professional boundaries can coexist — workplaces need space for both engagement and retreat. During economic uncertainty, organizations should invest in developing existing employees rather than relying solely on hiring. Timestamps 00:00 – Why the modern workplace feels emotionally heavy 02:00 – The idea of disengagement as a nervous system response 05:00 – Why disengagement is often misdiagnosed as an attitude problem 08:30 – Making space for emotions while maintaining workplace boundaries 12:00 – Why emotions at work provide valuable organizational data 17:00 – The myth of political neutrality in workplaces 19:00 – Why sustainable productivity requires humanity 23:00 – The complicated role of trust in organizations 28:00 – Trust as an environmental condition, not a personality trait 33:00 – AI hype, responsible leadership, and investing in existing employees
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    42 mins
  • The ongoing trouble with SHRM

    The ongoing trouble with SHRM
    Dec 16 2025
    For decades, SHRM has been the institution shaping HR standards, HR certifications, and workplace policy. But as political tensions rise, protections erode, and credibility questions grow louder, HR leaders are asking a new question: What happens when the largest HR organization in the world stops representing workers — and starts representing itself? In this packed, no-nonsense episode of Toot or Boot originally recorded in November 2024, Stacey Nordwall sits down with Sarika Lamont, Tracie Sponenberg, and Morgan Williams to unpack the long, complicated history of SHRM’s decisions and the ripple effects those choices have had on the HR profession, marginalized employees, and federal policy. The group traces SHRM’s evolution from “the only place HR could go” to an entity criticized for political alliances, removing equity from DEI, paywalling pandemic resources, and most recently, found responsible for discriminating and retaliating against a former employee. They also dive into something that matters even more: the rise of people-first HR communities that filled the vacuum when SHRM didn’t — and what HR practitioners can rely on now. Whether you’re SHRM-certified, SHRM-skeptical, or SHRM-conflicted, this conversation gives you the context you need to understand what’s at stake for HR, workers, and the future of workplace policy. Key takeaways SHRM’s decisions shape HR policy, employment law, and workplace norms worldwide. The organization’s political alignment has shifted sharply — and visibly — in recent years. SHRM paywalled critical COVID resources at the height of crisis. Removing the “E” from DEI sent a damaging message to marginalized workers. Johnny Taylor’s public stances contradict SHRM’s stated neutrality. SHRM’s lobbying often benefits employers, not employees or practitioners. The ongoing discrimination lawsuit highlights internal cultural issues. HR’s community-driven response during COVID created better models for learning and support. Alternatives — Peak HR, Hacking HR, Safe Space, Troop HR, and others — now offer richer, people-centered resources. HR leaders must stay informed because SHRM’s policy influence impacts workers, equity, and the future of the profession. Timestamps 02:00 — How each guest’s SHRM journey shaped their perspective 07:00 — The SHRM–HRCI split and political entanglements 12:00 — SHRM’s silence after George Floyd and LGBTQ+ cases 16:00 — The COVID paywall and the turning point in trust 20:00 — Johnny Taylor’s political positioning and the Labor Secretary shortlist 25:00 — Why SHRM’s power matters for HR and workers 33:00 — The danger of “civility” replacing equity 40:00 — How HR community spaces filled the gap 50:00 — Alternatives to SHRM and where HR is going next SHRM controversy, HR policy, Johnny Taylor, DEI equity removed, SHRM lawsuit, HR community, workplace politics, HR certification, lobbying impact, alternatives to SHRM
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    50 mins
  • The chaos inside modern hiring systems

    The chaos inside modern hiring systems
    Dec 9 2025
    Hiring has never felt more confusing — for candidates, recruiters, or the HR teams stuck in the middle. Between ATS myths, bad advice on TikTok, the Mobley v. Workday lawsuit, and a flood of AI-powered recruiting tools no one fully understands, it’s no surprise people are frustrated and misinformed. In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall is joined by talent experts Dani Herrera and T. Tara Turk-Haynes to pull back the curtain on what actually happens behind the scenes of recruiting. They break down common ATS misconceptions, explain how knockout questions really work, unpack the rise of grifters targeting desperate job seekers, and explore the messy overlap between automation and AI. The trio also digs into the Mobley lawsuit: what triggers instant rejections, when discrimination comes from the humans (not the software), how automation gets misread as AI, and why companies should be terrified of buying shiny tools without asking hard questions about data, bias, legality, and accountability. If you’ve ever wondered why you got rejected in 30 seconds, who really makes hiring decisions, or why every “ATS-proof résumé” online is a scam, this episode gives you the truth — with humor, receipts, and the kind of grounded reality only seasoned recruiters can offer. Key Takeaways Recruiters are not the final decision makers — hiring managers are. ATS systems don’t “reject” people; knockout questions and human setup errors do. Automation ≠ AI — and most instant rejections are automation, not algorithms. Keywords help recruiters search, but keyword stuffing is unnecessary and harmful. Résumé templates claiming to be “ATS-compliant” are pure grift. Many interviewers receive no training, which derails fair hiring. Workday and other large systems are only as ethical as the people who configure them. The Mobley lawsuit highlights systemic, not just AI-driven, discrimination risks. HR teams must ask vendors hard questions about data sources, audits, and bias. Candidates should be wary of bad online advice and seek guidance from real recruiters. Timestamps 00:00 — Why recruiting feels like a black box 02:00 — What recruiters actually control (and don’t) 07:00 — How ATSs really work behind the scenes 14:00 — The truth about keyword myths and “résumé hacks” 20:00 — How knock-out questions trigger instant rejections 23:00 — Grifters preying on job seekers with false promises 28:00 — Workday as ATS and HRIS — why that matters 33:00 — The deeper problem behind Mobley v. Workday 47:00 — When AI amplifies human bias instead of preventing it 55:00 — The questions HR must ask AI vendors now
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    1 hr and 9 mins
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